tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post7832247697187403861..comments2023-05-30T07:17:01.773-04:00Comments on Mystery Woman: Matchmaker, MatchmakerMystery Womanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06261372717440893787noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-12989837586028300702013-02-20T12:05:27.751-05:002013-02-20T12:05:27.751-05:00I'm chiming in a little late here...but I stil...I'm chiming in a little late here...but I still wanted to leave a comment.<br /><br />First, did you ever hear what Shadchan stands for? It's a good one! <br />(Shin)Sheker (Daled) Dovrim, (Kaf)Kesef (Nun)Notlin-they speak lies and take the money. LOL! It's a little funny...but it's also true. But sometimes I wonder, how much are they making up just to make the guy/girl sound good and how much are they really <i>lying</i> about?<br /><br />Over here, I think the issue is not whether a learning boy is more superior than a working boy-because what matters most is not what the guy does but <i>who he is as a person</i>. It's a lifestyle choice that a girl makes when she chooses one over the other. A girl is entitled to make that choice-whether or not others agree with those ideals.<br /><br />The part that bothers me most is the way the suggestion was made and who made it. A girl who...if she would be in your daughters shoes would probably never listen to the same suggestion! That's what bothers me. When making a suggestion, try putting yourself in the other person's shoes and think about whether or not you are being realistic. Don't think girls are so desperate to get married that they'll listen to something that is totally off their radar screen.<br /><br />Same for my sister...I cannot tell you what rediculous suggestions she has gotten. Just because she is single, doesn't mean she'll marry the next guy who walks through the door-so long as he is wearing pants! It's insulting...and sometimes I am thankful that <i>I</i> get to hear the suggestions and it doesn't have to go back to her...so she's saved from a little bit of the hurt.Devorahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09467731180285925143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-61568438757196583922013-02-04T09:21:39.803-05:002013-02-04T09:21:39.803-05:00*now that my daughter is so "old".*<i>now</i> that my daughter is so "old".Mystery Womanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06261372717440893787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-55272076951041413512013-02-03T21:43:22.135-05:002013-02-03T21:43:22.135-05:00Thank you for understanding, SIS. When she asked i...Thank you for understanding, SIS. When she asked if anything changed in the last 2 years as far as what my daughter wants, it's not the question that bothered me as much as the attitude - the implication that something <i>should</i> have changed not that my daughter is so "old". <br /><br />You may be right about shadchanim, but I don't necessarily have a problem with whatever tactics they use, in most cases. There is one shadchan I deal with who exaggerates and twists the facts, and I know that all I can be sure of is the boy's name. Anything else...I'm on my own. But I'm okay with it. She means well. I can deal with that.Mystery Womanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06261372717440893787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-89759689028359064752013-02-03T21:33:40.190-05:002013-02-03T21:33:40.190-05:00That is true.That is true.Mystery Womanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06261372717440893787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-24715721220631900342013-02-02T22:36:28.055-05:002013-02-02T22:36:28.055-05:00MW, I totally and completely agree with you. That ...MW, I totally and completely agree with you. That friend was wrong, that friend was offensive, that friend was not looking out for your daughter. I read through all the comments here, and many are missing the point. The point is she suggested something which she CONFIRMED your daughter doesn't want, which she herself would NEVER go into, and yet, because in her mind your daughter is "old" (which she is definitely not), she thinks she should take anything and everything offered...*anything* to get married. It's elitist and insulting. Sure, compromise is in order in shidduchim, but a guy who goes out to work at the young age of 23 is not for your long-term-learner-minded daughter.<br /><br />And to respond to your last line that shidduchim sometimes only come about through the tactics of the shadchan...a shadchan must act in good faith. Halachically a shadchan cannot suggest something she knows you don't want. She cannot hide a detail which she knows is important to you, even if it's trivial to most people. The end does not always justify the means.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-14160910801362490572013-02-02T19:10:29.468-05:002013-02-02T19:10:29.468-05:00A life is only as beautiful as one makes it to be....A life is only as beautiful as one makes it to be. Princess Leahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17217157534383672867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-50958058200899576572013-02-01T09:59:54.270-05:002013-02-01T09:59:54.270-05:00Thank you, SIR. She is young and idealistic, and h...Thank you, SIR. She is young and idealistic, and her dream <i>is</i> a beautiful one, and it's what she wants. If someday she has to compromise on that, we'll deal with that then. Meanwhile, I see no reason she shouldn't go for it.Mystery Womanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06261372717440893787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-4151068487639762342013-01-31T20:30:41.293-05:002013-01-31T20:30:41.293-05:00I have to admit that my initial thought when I re...I have to admit that my initial thought when I read this post was that maybe you were being a bit narrow-minded for getting so annoyed by such a suggestion. But then I thought about it and realized that rewind me a few years back, and I probably would've been really upset too. So I can't call you out on something I've been guilty of :-). But also, you're right, she isn't that old that she should give up on something this important to her. Her dream to marry a full time learner is a beautiful one and she still has a good chance of getting it. I hope she does realize her dream, very, very soon!Sun inside Rainhttp://www.suninsiderain.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-44442903110326071912013-01-31T20:28:10.169-05:002013-01-31T20:28:10.169-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.in the vanguardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11796434751654291581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-66696422368831194752013-01-31T14:09:04.147-05:002013-01-31T14:09:04.147-05:00Of course. And I do express my opinion about plent...Of course. And I do express my opinion about plenty of other things. But this is something that's important to her, and I respect that. There's actually so much beauty in that lifestyle, and if it is what she wants, I have no problem with that. I have more of a problem with the whole system. Mystery Womanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06261372717440893787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-62936516790911657022013-01-31T12:47:25.672-05:002013-01-31T12:47:25.672-05:00As a mother, though, you have more experience in t...As a mother, though, you have more experience in the ways of the world than your daughter. You have a right to express an opinion about what might affect her future happiness.<br /><br />The elephant in the room (which no one is mentioning) is that as a girl gets older, it's harder to get a "learning" boy. There are many reasons for this, but that is the way it is. I have seen a lovely neighbor hold on to principle for this and remain single as her younger,more flexible sisters married working men.<br /><br />I know this wasn't the point of your post (explained in a comment below), and I know I am not telling you something you are not aware of, but as a parent, it's your right (and duty!) to make sure your child has all the facts.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-14979703067174895222013-01-31T11:20:18.154-05:002013-01-31T11:20:18.154-05:00True. I was insulted by the shadchan's attitud...True. I was insulted by the shadchan's attitude, not by the actual suggestion.<br /><br />You're right - and like I said in my post...shidduchim, often, do not make sense. And I do encourage her to consider someone who is not exactly what she has in mind. And she does. She is pretty flexible in some ways. But this is something that - to her - is very basic. It's about the whole lifestyle. She's not ready to give up on that yet.Mystery Womanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06261372717440893787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-72095672136195166542013-01-31T10:13:46.703-05:002013-01-31T10:13:46.703-05:00But the shadchan herself does not determine if the...But the shadchan herself does not determine if the fellow himself is a good guy or not. People have called up with a snide tone to their voice, but that has no bearing on the quality of the fellow himself. <br /><br />As for your daughter, and "what she wants" . . . like I said, my sister ended up with everything she wasn't looking for. My mother took that lesson very much to heart, encouraging me to go on a harmless date with someone who is not what I envision myself ending up with. <br /><br />She makes a point to tell people, "If you put my children-in-law in a line up before they went out with my children, in a million years I would not have been able to pick them out." <br /><br />As a mother, you can encourage your daughter to go out, not marry, just go out with a fellow who is not doing exactly what she would like, at this point in time. <br /><br />Stranger marriages have happened. Princess Leahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17217157534383672867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-38721065607396038452013-01-31T09:43:05.505-05:002013-01-31T09:43:05.505-05:00Thank you, anon. You explained that better than I ...Thank you, anon. You explained that better than I could. We've gotten suggestions that were so ridiculous, and it wasn't insulting at all. Her attitude was insulting, not her suggestion.Mystery Womanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06261372717440893787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-16326585499267494982013-01-31T09:39:20.127-05:002013-01-31T09:39:20.127-05:00I actually agree with you. I once wrote a post whe...I actually agree with you. I once wrote a post where I express a little bit of how feel. Here it is: http://mysterywomantome.blogspot.com/2011/01/supply-and-demand.html <br /><br />But this is not about me or how I feel. It's about my daughter. This is what she wants. Mystery Womanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06261372717440893787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-44332946690959245962013-01-31T09:33:07.295-05:002013-01-31T09:33:07.295-05:00After I published the post, I was worried that it ...After I published the post, I was worried that it would be misunderstood. I was not offended because she suggested someone who is working. We've had plenty of suggestions like that before. It's not what my daughter is looking for, but it is not insulting. Like anon said, It was the caller's attitude. It is something <i>she</i> sees as demeaning, and it's okay for my poor, old daughter who isn't married yet, but <i>she</i> would never have considered it for herself. Mystery Womanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06261372717440893787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-85065522759699279372013-01-30T22:10:51.385-05:002013-01-30T22:10:51.385-05:00I agree with much of the first two comments. That ...I agree with much of the first two comments. That said, I understand Mystery Woman's POV, too...it's not necessarily that the suggestion is an "insult" it's that the person suggesting it would never, ever have considered it for herself/her daughter. I've gotten suggestions like that too (not the working vs. learning--I'm not looking for a kollel lifestyle anyway-- but the "it's ok for you, just not for me" type) and it does sting a little bit. <br />At least, Mystery Woman, the person didn't lecture you or tell you that you need to "think outside the box"--at this point in my life, I cannot STAND that phrase.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-51243785794359186422013-01-30T21:24:56.943-05:002013-01-30T21:24:56.943-05:00I know this is not the kind of response that perha...I know this is not the kind of response that perhaps you wanted nor expected, but if I understand correctly, the only point was "offensive" was that he was working? Not only is that the responsible thing to do, it's not that this guy had bad middot or smoked or partied or had a past or that he didn't value Torah, but that he worked. Is that honestly what it has gotten to? He might have chosen to work part-time or to make time for Torah.<br /><br />I don't want to go on a rant about the Kollel system, which I think cannot stand on its own and will eventually crumble. I think the focus should not be learning the torah but also living it. There are plenty of "great learners" who lack in essential middot. Furthermore, its not a realistic system for those that do not have wealthy parents. And even if they do, would such an "ideal" system last for their kids?<br /><br />With all due respect, I think if the guy in question has good middot, values Torah, but "just" works, you should reconsider. Sometimes those that work, instead of having (yes, having because in some circles it is atrocious if you don't choose to go into learning even if you do not care about it and actually waste your time in the beis) to learn full time, they value their time in learning much more. Nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11988396893369485100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-665385599853681934.post-65108884249214434762013-01-30T13:36:04.067-05:002013-01-30T13:36:04.067-05:00I am personally looking for a guy who is working o...I am personally looking for a guy who is working or on the path to working. From time to time, someone will call up and suggest someone who is learning. I am not offended; why should I be? <br /><br />My sister ended up with everything she wasn't looking for. I learned from that to not be so sure of myself, and to be open. <br /><br />The only reason why you would be offended is if you find working to be on a lower level than learning. Do you? <br /><br />Nothing from what this girl said sounds particularly demeaning. This guy went into the family business after learning, it doesn't mean he is any less devoted to his learning. Maybe he's keeping up a full daily allotment, since there are all sorts of perks to being in a family business. <br /><br />A learning lifestyle is not what I am looking for. Yet I have gone out with learning guys, in the spirit of being open. I am not offended if someone calls me up with such a suggestion. <br /><br />Of course I have been offended with some suggestions, but not because someone is learning when I would prefer working. Princess Leahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17217157534383672867noreply@blogger.com